*C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

WoW ~ talk about eye-candy.........check these babies out !

http://www.gunboards.com/images/The-...o-Semi_000.jpg

http://www.gunboards.com/MGSOverviewOfSemiAutos.htm

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

They also stock a lot of 'KITS' ~ anyone build one of these ?

I'm thinking of trying it.........sounds like a neat project. :D

http://www.militarygunsupply.com/sho...ges/ppsh43.JPG
larger image <NOSCRIPT>http://goldismoney.info/forums/images/ppsh43.JPG
larger image</NOSCRIPT><!--eof Main Product Image--><!--bof Product Name-->
PPs-43 SMG Parts Kit

<!--eof Product Name--><!--bof Product Price block -->Starting at: $69.99

<!--eof Product Price block --><!--bof free ship icon --><!--eof free ship icon --><!--bof Product description -->Original 'east block' PPS-43 SMG Kit. Excellent condition. Comes with four (4) mags. Barrel not included. All Kits are cut to ATF Specifications.

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

A 7.62x25 carbine would be an awfully handy survival weapon. Especially if it could share mags with a pistol in the same caliber.

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

I've seen ads and a few write-ups on the 7.62x25 rounds.

Does 1500 fps sound right and what's the Muzzle Energy ??? ....sounds 2-3 times more effective than a .45 ACP round.

Also, they're a lot cheaper. I can pick these up for about 10-11 cents per round.

:wink:

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

Please note that in small print it does say 'barrel NOT included' and YOU can't get one. You would have to have one made.

Try Weaponeer as they have five of the PPS43 kits for $225. AGAIN, NO BARRELS ARE INCLUDED. NO RECEIVERS EITHER, but at least they sell the 80% receivers, meaning you will need to 'fit' them.

So, unless you have a lathe and are willing to 'turn' your own barrels, you are SOL.

OH, and it's EXTREMELY ILLEGAL to make your own machine gun. The BATF really frowns on that kind of thing.

Even WITH the correct FFL, you can't sell it. You can make it for your use only.

But they are KEWL looking. About 700 rpm (compared to the PPSh 41, which is 900 rpm). The 7.62x25 rounds really 'shred' things at either of those rates.

Buy a CZ52 as it shoots the 7.62x25 round and yeah, around $.10 a round is about right.

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

Yeah, it'd have to be a semi-auto only conversion. That's fine though, that's all I need. I'm pretty sure you could get a barrel maker to turn out the needed barrel, it would just cost.

The 7.62x25 is my favorite handgun round for a number of reasons. 1500fps is in the ballpark, it's zippy! Muzzle energy for an ~85gr bullet sits a bit over 500ftlbs. It'll shoot flat a long ways and has great penetration. With the right HP it could be a serious expander or fragger but as it stands the FMJ tumbles well. Here, look at the jello!

http://brassfetcher.com/Wolf%2085gr%20Copper%20JHP.html

http://brassfetcher.com/762x25mm.html

http://brassfetcher.com/hornady762x25mmJHPs.html

Compared to the .45acp a 7.62x25 HP bullet will expand to a max size .1 to .25 inches smaller than the .45. The HP's from both calibers will penetrate just about as far as eachother in a soft target, though the 7.62x25 does tend to get an inch or two on the .45acp. The 7.62x25 will penetrate all intermediate barriers much more easily than the .45acp, it costs less and it is much lighter in weight with a longer effective range.

Effectiveness of any handgun bullet is not directly tied to any single measurement such as velocity, diameter, bullet weight or even energy. I don't think it's even feasible to construct an argument that one service caliber is two or three times more effective than another. I can say this, 7.62x25TOK is certainly more practical than .45ACP.

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

Rev,
I concur with ALMOST everything you say. I too love the 25 round. It's a 'hottie' for sure.

BUT, BARRELS for the PPS43 are 'unobtanium'. That from my buddy in Germany who goes to 'Russian' arms shows all the time. He says apparently this is one batch that almost ALL the barrels were cut up with the receivers.

Now, you CAN FIND this weapon with the barrel. But the KIT is $260. http://www.floridagunworks.com/Merch...&Category_Code=

AND NO, you can't MAKE THIS ONE SEMIAUTO. It was ONLY FULL AUTO when manufactured and short of completely redesigning the trigger group, you cannot do this. The one that's for sale on the website listed above for $600? HAS all sorts of problems. Especially with 'double fires' and slam fires (no saftey). Note it says that it's not for sale until July - I believe it's still NOT for sale BECAUSE of these types of problems.

NOW, you MIGHT should be able to find a PPSh 41 (both semi and full auto from new) that you COULD make semi only.

BUT as much as I want one (or more) of the PPS43's you only gonna get full auto out of them. It's kinda like the 'Bren gun' kits that used to be everywhere about ten (ish) years ago. They were full auto ONLY also and NO ONE that I'm aware of (including one guy who got caught with one) ever made one that was a single shot.

Here's a site that has the PPS43 (and PPSh41) receivers for sale, but they DO SAY 'ALL NFA RULES APPLY', which means these are CLASS III RECEIVERS. http://stenparts.com/Tubes/tubes.html

Sorry. But on the LIGHTER SIDE OF THINGS... Gotta luv those Brits...

http://www.shamozzle.com/AK-47.html

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

I've heard of a few guys making semi autos from the 41's. Whatever the kit I'd mostly be interested in it for a few difficult to make parts like the bolt and mags, and yes the barrel. I'd want to assemble it into a carbine of my own design. That project ain't going nowhere for a long time if ever though, too many other things to work on.

Do you know the actual diameter of the 7.62x25? I have a spare AK barrel laying around and it seems a subcaliber device could be fashioned for it. Otherwise there are currently American barrel makers cranking out AK barrels, Vector Arms is using them. The next question would be whether or not the rate of twist is compatible?

Speaking of which, do you know of any equipment that would be useful for rifling a barrel at home? I've got 5 or 6 months of digging ahead of me but when I clear that I want to try my hand at a break action .22mag revolver that fires from the bottom cylinder and I'll probably want to make a custom barrel for it that I might not be able to carve out of a large readymade barrel. If I could use the same tooling for this and the 7.62x25 I'd be interested in getting set up. I'd like to make a carbine in x25 and probably a big brother to the .22 I mentioned in 7.62x25. These would be for personal enjoyment only, of course.

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

Rev,
Strangely enough, I DO.

I have two 7.62x25 bullets sitting on my LCD monitor that I have left over from pulling some of it apart to test the powder and the primers.

The two bullets I have are .305 dia x .640 length and .307 dia x .644 in length (this second bullet came apart with a 'dimple' on it but I measured below that). This agrees with my "Cartridges of the World -8th edition" that says 7.62x25 Russian Tokarev has a .307 diameter.

I purposefully bought some of the 'bad Bulgarian' ammo so I could test the powder and primers to see if that might be the cause of the ammo having such high rates of CUP.

The powder burned evenly. The primers all fired with one strike. So that experiment was a failure. THOUGH, I now have about twenty 'good' 7.62x25 dummy rounds I can cycle through any weapon that shoots this round. Like I said, I LIKE this round.

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

<TABLE id=table24 style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" borderColor=#000000 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=10 width=577 border=1><TBODY><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD>http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/admi...mb_PPSH412.jpg </TD><TD>
PPSH 41 Rifle 762 x 25 Russian Burp Gun

</TD><TD></B>$1075.00</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Ouch......a bit steep in the price but if it's more reliable when firing then maybe it's worth it.
This model comes with 2 Drum mags.

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/prog...ew.asp?CatId=7

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

Yeah, a grand for basically a 'camp carbine' in 7.62x25 sux.

PLUS the only real problem with the PPSh 41 is that the DRUM was consistently having problems. But you might still be able to modify Suomi Finnish SMG mags, and they WILL fit with a little 'tweaking'.

That's why the PPS 43 only came with stick mags. They work much better. Sadly the PPS 43 mags will not fit the PPSh 41.

Unfortunately, no happy answers. I wish there was. Like I said, I LIKE the 7.62x25 round. A really good round.

And in an SMG it does 'shred' things pretty well. My buddy said he liked the PPSh 41 he got to 'play with'. But even at the range he said the drum was a pain in the ...

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

Well, I hate to admit it, but I broke down and bought one of the parts kits.

I was made a deal by one of my suppliers. They had 'one' left and thought it was missing some parts. When they called me on the phone, my lady told me that it was 'all there', which was a surprise to all of us.

Anyway, it should arrive in the next week or so. I REALLY don't want to piss anyone off, but because I use these folks and told them it didn't matter if it was 'all there' or not, because I just wanted to see the design and function, the shipped to me price was $65. NO MAG. Not sure about a barrel (though she was told 'everything BUT the mag'), so I will let you folks know. This one will NEVER be a shooter for me. I bought it because I wanted to see the over all design and function (D&F) and see what the Russians were manufacturing back in 1943.

After I've had it a while, I might even sell it. MAYBE. We will see. As long as I don't have any receiver, I'm good. Once anyone purchases a receiver, even an 80% receiver, you can run 'afoul' of BATF laws with 'intent to build' so I ALWAYS avoid that issue by NOT purchasing a receiver. Maybe I'll make a dummy receiver so it literally won't fire.

Hey, there are no WWII RUSSIAN reenactors in our MVCC. So if I did, I could purchase a repro WWII Russian uniform and carry this baby. That would be fun. Right now, I 'reenact' the Desert Storm period, as NO ONE seems to reenact that period of our military history at this time.

I'm nothing if not the 'lone voice' as it were. I always seem attracted to things that most people eschew. Don't know why. Guess that's why I just bought the PPS43 parts kit.

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

I have some of that in me. I think it's usually because I grow tired of the status quo and want to see what else there is in the world. Usually the status quo sucks and there are better options. At any rate it keeps things interesting.

I've been itching for one of those Romanian TT33's that are coming into the country now. While I was researching it I came across either a PPSH 41 or 43 semi auto that was going for $600. Seems like they had a lot of them. It's still more money than I would like to spend but it's a lot better than $1,000. Trouble is I can't find the dealer now! :banghead:

7.62x39 has an actual bullet diameter of .311 so I'm not sure if that would properly stabilize the skinnier 7.62x25 bullets. What would be really great would be something like a Sub-2000 in x25.

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

Here is someone selling a PPSH-41 barrel on Gunbroker. I would imagine the PPS-43 can use the same barrel. So it would appear that barrels for these SMG kits can be found if one looks hard enough.

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=82226956

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

The PPS43 And PPS43 Pistol -
http://www.gunboards.com/images/ppsh43.jpg
In an effort to improve production time the Soviets designed the PPS43 in the middle of battles, with the test versions of these SMG’s going from production straight into the bitter house to house fighting on the Eastern Front. In the fine tradition of other Soviet arms the PPS43 became widely known for its reliability and toughness in the field. There will be two versions of these, the first a pistol version and the second a rifle version with an extended barrel and barrel shroud. On the pistol version the folding stock will be permanently welded in place, which under BATF regulations means it is a pistol so can have a shorter barrel. One 30 round magazine will be included in the price. These will not be for open sale until July.

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

Yeah, that should have been pretty obvious. Somehow I got confused and thought Atlantic had them, but what Atlantic has costs $1,000+. I should have hit that link again. Oh well, back to digging for me I guess.

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

I'd really like this one but the price tag is a bit steep.....the best part is interchangeable barrels. :wink:

The Bren Mark II Light Machine Gun -

http://www.gunboards.com/images/bren.jpg

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

http://www.militarygunsupply.com/sho...roducts_id=132

This is the folks you were thinking about. HOWEVER, please note that the price is $700, not $600. The previous link listed above this one takes you to a forum, not to the Military Gun Supply site. You will pay $800 for the PPSh-41 from them.

OH, and mags for the PPS43 are $10 each. BUY EARLY. BUY OFTEN. You can NEVER have enough magazines. Even if this IS the semi auto version. I would think about ten extra mags would be about 'right'. Gives you a total of 11 mags, which means 396 rounds of 7.62x25 on tap.

These will disappear fairly soon. Certainly will NOT be available after 2008 elections have been held. I actually talked to these folks in Ft. Worth, Texas and yes they are in stock and ready to ship. Seemed like nice folks.

And don't forget to 'stock up' on ammo, cause that too will disappear in the coming year.

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

Yep, I'm fortunate enough to be 'driving distance' from their showroom.

Unfortunately, when I went this past weekend all their SMG's and LMG's were at gun shows. :banghead: ........I did see the parts kits though.

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

You can get kits here for $80 (no barrel) with FOUR 35-rnd mags in a pouch + you'd have spare parts !

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=359283

:wink:

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...561/SoEasy.jpg

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

Another link with VIDEOS !

http://www.mosinnagant.net/MGSDP28page.htm

KP-44

http://www.mosinnagant.net/images/kp44.jpg

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

You guys have bad taste in guns, I'll give you that. :D

These ones are much nicer....

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

s2,
Actually I had both the model 91 and the model 93 (semi auto) with the sliding stock AND a regular buttstock for both. The 91 was 'easier' on my shoulder with the solid buttstock. With the 93 it just didn't matter. They were great guns. AND WAY EXPENSIVE. I found a 77 Bronco I just had to have. It only had 23k miles on it. It had been used as the 'company snowplow' where my wife worked for more than twenty five years. I gave them $4500 for it. That's what they paid for it new.

Sold my HK collection to come up with that amount. I got $2500 for the 91 and $2800 for the 93. My HK pistols (five) brought in another $3500.

I always liked the HK design, locking roller bolt design. GREAT GUNS.

NEVER really liked the MP5 cause the 9mm is NOT that great of a stopping round. OK, thirty or forty rounds on target WILL get the job done. OR one shot from the 91...

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

Well that is correct. The two guns have very different purposes that they are specifically designed for. The model 91 to my understanding is a semi version of a 7.62x51 mm G3 (A3/A4) battle rifle, a fine one at that. I'd hate to sell one of those. :)

The MP5 is able to lay down a pretty high rate of fire, 9mm means it's accurate even on auto or burst. Good close range defense weapon, instead of a shotgun for example. In a house, it's not going to shoot some innocent in another room easily, which is why it is used by some SWAT teams etc.

I'd say I like the 91 better though for stopping things. The mp5's role could always be fairly well subsituted with a decent shotgun.

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

9mm will kill you dead as a stump if it hits a vital area and it'll only wound you if it doesn't, just like any other service caliber handgun round. That said 9x19 ain't even in the same league as 7.62x25, the latter is more like a mini-rifle round in terms of penetration power and trajectory. The Russian SMG's are funky looking but until somebody makes something else in that caliber they're the only game in town.

Here's an interesting combo for you though, a M1 Carbine and a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 carbine. That round's got more zip to it than even the 7.62x25, it's just longer so hard to make a semi auto pistol out of it.

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

Rev,
You are ABSOLUTELY correct. Having said that, do you know which round has killed the most people in the history of firearm?

.22
Cheap, reliable and the choice of most 'mechanics'...

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

I once saw a deer taken with a 115gr 9x19 FMJ from a handgun, the exit wound was all out of porportion to the caliber and load, it was a bone hit through the chest cavity. It wouldn't be my choice for that task and I'd consider anything less than a 7.62x39/.30-30 class rifle to be borderline ethical but it can be done with a clean shot by a competent shooter.

On that note people have dropped deer with headshots from a .22lr since before I was born. In fact just this morning I had such an opportunity, didn't take it though. I was walking my property and came within 25 yards of a beautiful red doe, an uncommon color at least around here. The .22lr is a capable little cartridge, CCI and Aguila have produced some really interesting loads in this caliber. As far as platforms go two that shouldn't be overlooked are the American 180 if you want full auto or else who could forget the Calico with it's 100rd mags???

http://calicolightweaponsystems.com/....php?page=22-2

I'm partial to the more potent .22mag, though. Too bad it isn't .22lr-derived for direct interchangeability but you can fire .22lr's in .22mag chambers if you use a subcaliber device made from a spent shell or don't mind putting up with bulged cases and extraction problems. If somebody would put out a .22mag equivalent with the same taper as a .22lr along with one rifle and pistol to take advantage of it I'm sure it'd take off faster than the .17cal rimfires did. Talk about versatility, you'd have everything from near silent CB caps to shotshells and mag slugs plus ready access to a huge supply of incredibly cheap plinking ammo. The Ruger 10-22 Magnum is one mean little rimfire! Makes for a heck of a lightweight forage/survival gun. .22mags were commonly used for hunting aligator hides in my state in the old days, had enough penetration to put them down with a well placed shot and wouldn't dammage a coon too bad in case you wanted to pick up some furs along the way.

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

I'm a big fan of the CZ-52s. This thread and the recent post showing the CZ-52 being the only pistol capable of penetrating a kevlar helmet have me reinterested in carrying a CZ-52 in my car. I just today got my 16.5# recoil spring, forged firing pin/trigger adjustment, and forged rollers today from Makarov.com. I'm going to outfit my favorite piece (park'd '53) and put it in the car. I'll also carry it when I'm prospecting.

I'd love to see a carbine in 7.62x25. One drawback, however, is the availability of ammunition. It is available, but only at certain places. I looked into reloading it, and I had a hard time finding all the components. Does anyone here reload 7.62x25? Has anyone found hollowpoint/ballistic bullets?

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

I'd love me a glock converted to 7.62x25, I've read somewhere that some 7.62x25 is very similar in size to some 9x19 ammo. Anyone else interested in that?

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

BJ,
Actually there used to be a company that made a 9mm barrel for the CZ52. Other than that, it still uses the same mag and everything else.

And if any of you want a 7.62 x 25 carbine, consider the PPS 43 in semi auto from Military Gun Supply.

http://www.militarygunsupply.com/sho...roducts_id=132

For $700, it's not too bad. But for that kind of money you could have TWO AK's...

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

Did the PPS 43 originally fire from an open bolt? What was changes to make it semi-auto? Why did they put the chamber so far forward on the gun? Would be nicer if it was shorter overall.

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

Yes to open bolt.

The receiver is modified so it WILL NOT fire full auto.

The FINNISH K44 is a LITTLE shorter, but not by much. Hope that helps.

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

In case anyone needs a link for the tutorial on building a PPS-43 :

http://projectguns.com/762pistol2.html

:wink:

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

OK, time for me to 'eat crow' as it were. You can make the PPS43 semi auto. AD posted a great link. And the Weaponeer site is also a great site for all sorts of kit builds. If you want to build a semi auto PPS43, be prepared to have a machine shop, because you will HAVE to modify the bolt and COMPLETELY change out the Fire Control Group (FCG - sear, trigger, hammer), receiver and buy and modify an 80% receiver and a trunion. So it CAN be done.

The one that Military Gun Supply sells right now is strictly a semi auto pistol and DOES USE the original short 10" barrel that came with some kits. On Weaponeer, they mention a 16" barrel, but it needs to have the chamber cut and needs to be turned down to actually fit the weapon. This is why I said you need a machine shop. And know how to use it.

The link that AD posted, the guy who did that build completely cut up the original weapons and ended up with a fully functional semi auto, but to call it a PPS43 is a bit of a misnomer, because he does only use a few parts from the kit.

Having done this research in depth, I have come to the conclusion that MY PPS43 kit will probably never be built. Not that I don't know how or actually mind doing it and I DO still have access to a buddy of mines machine shop, it's just a lot of work, when for $700 you can get the same results from MGS. Well, kind of. Currently they are only selling the PPS43 as a 'pistol', which means they can use the 10" barrel, but it doesn't have the rear folding stock.

So, YOU CAN BUILD a semi auto PPS43 from the kit. Or you can just go out and buy one from MGS, which is what I'm considering doing. Then I'll have a full set of parts for spare.

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

Wallew,

Took apart my Thompson the other night........cleaned her and re-oiled key points. The bolt seems smoother but it's hard to tell.

Also, FWIW - I ordered a Bren Mk-I kit through Weaponeer and a Bren Mk-I Barrel + mag from IMA..........it's one of those 'fear' purchases where I think nows the best time to pick up these parts 'cheap' while they're available.

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

VERY SMART MOVE. Don't forget the ammo for it. Cause regardless of who gets in, I fear we are in for a new round of 'overbearing gun laws' being passed. ESPECIALLY if Hitlery gets the nod.

Having said that, there is NOT ENOUGH MONEY IN THE WORLD to get me to swap places with any politician in the coming generation (20 years) to have to actually deal with the fact the SSI is NOT going to be available to all of us boomers. Gonna be a lot of 'dead monkeys' hanging from the trees in the coming few years.

Re: *C@@L* gun thread - smg's
 

That's a contributing factor in my 'fear' - better load up quick mindset. If that b*tch gets elected, the next weapons ban will make the '94 ban look like a cakewalk. :rant:

Roger that on the ammo.......will start stockpiling .303 rounds asap. :wink:

I'm in the process of selling 'stuff' I don't need for more guns & kits as well with a focus on the imported machinery. It seems I've expanded my base metals hoarding to include items made of nickel, copper, aluminum, and various types of steel.

Can you imagine the 'steel' value of a 1919 A4 without it being operable in the year 2040 ?!? .......it'll probably make my stomach sick, especially if I don't have one by then. :banghead: